280 inch bull elk

By 7th April 2023tim tszyu sister

Idaho Elk Outfitters 2113 West 3800 south Rexburg, Idaho 83440 208-313-3634. For excessively rugged, steep-canyon elk country such as Idahos River Of No Return wilderness, such a rifle could mean the difference between steaks and tag soup. Dropping a bull cleanly takes a good cartridge. I warned you this is a big family. thanks coondog Aug 10, 2005 #2 Tom New member Joined Jan 22, 2001 Messages 4,985 Location San Antonio, Texas, USA Here's a bunch from 300 to 400+ SCI scoring ones. Just as importantly, it delivers plenty of punch on far-distant impacts. The .30/30, .300 Savage, .30/06, .300 Win. At the light end is the .338 Federal, the .308 Winchester case necked up. Believe it or not, with the right bullet, it can hang right with the .300 Win Mag without the recoil. vertical-align: top Buy and sell new and used guns online from anywhere in the world on Guns International, including pistols, shotguns, rifles, handguns, revolvers, ammo and more. Early on, the 7mm Rem. You start by taking the first measurement at the smallest diameter between the first and second point, and then so on until you have 4 measurements total per side no matter how many points (tines) the bull has (See Coreys section on Scoring Elk). The first method is to air judge also known as the wing-it approach, which is based on experience and prior knowledge. All Rights Reserved. The smaller the bullet, the higher its quality and the more precise its deposit must be. This one would be lucky to make 260especially because its a five point.. The 140 Nosler AB is mentioned a lot on this site as the best bullet and effective out to around 400 or 500 yards. Check your email for a confirmation message. Sixteen-year-old Cody Vine of Arizona took this 7x6 bull elk scoring 428 while bowhunting in the Kaibab National Forest last fall. I can't explain those kills. Short Magnums, Long Magnums, Ultra Magnums, stubby cases with long bullets, long cases even longer bullets; the list goes on and on. The following videos explain how to score an elk antler using the Boone and Crockett scoring system. Usually your first impression of a bull is pretty honest and accurate. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Thats right, you should have already shot! While growing up in the early 1960s, I lived next to the federal elk refuge in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. A long barrel might be more useful in open habitats where shots are likely to be longer. When a bull has his head down feeding, I determine whether the main beam is higher or lower than the hump on his back above his shoulder. Any cartridge in a caliber big enough to hit an elk hard hits you hard, too. Re: In search of pics of a 260-300 bull. Not too hard, not too soft, not too fast, not too slow, but just right because it shoots mid-caliber .284-inch diameter bullets. The old .270 Winchester has been hotly debated since 1925, yet it has been a favorite among thousands of elk pros. Is the mass heavy or light and how does it compare to 30 per side? There are plenty of other .30-calibers for hire. Notice by comparing these classes of bulls that misjudging a couple of points by a couple of inches will affect the accuracy of your score. Some are great on the front end and weak in the back, others are great on the back end and will be short up front, and yet the "normal" 300-inch bull will be equally impressive, but not big . It is kind of like shooting a 14 inch antelope. In essence, good elk cartridges drive tough, heavy bullets of healthy diameter, and drive em fast. But seriously, the way to judge them is to score their frame and points just like you would a typical 66, then size up the non typical points and add that to your total. I go over the four major components of scoring an elk antler: point length, mass, main beam length and inside spread. The reason is because Im not that interested in net scores. This will give you a very good idea of the bulls inside spread. font-size: 14px; text-align: center; Powered by UBB.threads PHP Forum Software 7.7.5. The final way to judge is through the Estimating Shortest Points Magic 200 Method. If you add these totals up for main beams, spread, and mass from both sides you get 200 inches. 180-gr. Mag. Think Remington M700s, Savage M110s, Ruger M77s, and even the Browning Autoloading Rifle. Next, I estimate the length of the shortest point for each antler, double it and then add them up. Most factory loads from a 24-inch barrel are rated 2,960 fps. The kicker about this bull is he is 52" wide at the widest points. Mag., and elk hardly know the difference. The 6.5 Creedmoor, 7mm-08 Remington, and .308 Winchester rifles have 22-inch barrels. The 6.5 Creedmoor is no dragon slayer. At 2,500 fps and a B.C. loads. You want to look for anything that is sticking out or extraordinary. Handloaders report optimum performance with a sleek, high B.C., 225-grain bullet pushed to an impressive 2,882 fps from a 24-inch barrel. Hannah Helmer's bull, harvested on the Sept. 24 opener of the elk season in the Hat Creek Unit near Crawford, was officially scored at 430 6/8 on Nov. 30 by Nebraska Game and Parks Commission wildlife biologist Randy Stutheit. Youll be much more satisfied with the outcome of most of your elk hunts. Id be hunting the San Carlos Reservation every year! The 300-inch curse has plagued piles of public-land hunters chasing elk in the West. 4,531 Bull Elk Premium High Res Photos Browse 4,531 bull elk stock photos and images available, or search for bull elk bugling vector or bull elk in banff to find more great stock photos and pictures. Mag., and does so out of shorter barrels. slug from the .300 Win. hunting. Bullets engineered to expand at 7mm terminal velocities are the ticket, and there are plenty of them. A 22LR cartridge can fell a bull elephant under the right conditions, and a newborn squirrel can survive a 50 BMG round under other specific conditions. Mag. From: WapitiBob 20-Apr-12 I love to field judge bulls and then score them on the ground to see how close my field judging was to the real thing. Mag. Mag. Ive just shown that its no faster than the .300 Win. Many times we hunters get overly caught up with trophy hunting. After those stalwarts comes a blizzard of .30-calibers that claw their way up the power scale. Unless you work with a custom gun builder and handload, study factory options before choosing. But, credit where credit is due, its a great elk cartridge. Mag. In both cases he used a 300 Winchester Magnum and a 150 grain bullet." "Tom Shimak took this 350+ inch trophy with a bow. That is to say, we assume the elk being harvested is shot directly or nearly directly in the vitals (heart and/or lungs). Big Game Hunting - 250 Elk - Hey elk guys, does anyone have any pictures of a 220 to 250 class elk. Silvertine kills more 400" bulls than any other hunt ranch . So, I'm guessing him to be in that range you asked about. Mag. 2023 Western Hunting Application Deadlines, New feature released on Insider Hunt Planner, Point Tracker: Your first step in researching hunts, How to import waypoints from other sources to GOHUNT Maps, Dialing in your fitness now to be ready for fall, Research your way to big bucks with a tool you're probably not using, The ABCs of finding a legit hunting partner. Subscribe to OL+ for our best feature stories and photography. "Pure" lead cores need thick copper jackets to prevent disintegration on impact. This article does not serve as the final say, but simply as a starting point for beginner hunters, as well as a venue for further discussion. 169.204.214.73 Ask yourself if the bull is young or mature, then move on. Ill stick my neck out and say it: This is the best 6.5mm cartridge ever devised for hunting. Finally, the .280 Ackley Improved is rocketing to western-hunting stardom. at 3,000 fps. That 380 bull with these extras would score around 417. While not quite reliable, it has its place at times. Here is my wifes bull, probably 290 (never really scored it) without broken tine. launched 2,600 fps will still be churning some 1,800 ft-lb energy. Pair it with an accurate 180-grain bullet and hunt confidently, knowing that your rifle is adequate for any reasonable scenario. Let's look at those assumptions a bit closer in the following table. Just as theres a significant difference between a 22-year-old, 6-foot 4-inch athlete and a 50-year-old, 5-foot 7-inch accountant, theres a huge difference between rolling prairies and 11,000-foot peaks poking above doghair stands of pine and spruce. elk Keep in mind that with the Pope & Young and Boone & Crockett scoring systems (which are identical) you only measure 4 mass measurements along the main beam. The right bullet in the right place. Your taste in rifle weight, mass, and recoil will color your choices. FORLOH AllClima Softshell and AllClima Stretch Woven Pant Review. word-break: normal; retains the title of best balanced elk caliber in it. Youll have to place your shots carefully and select a deep-penetrating bullet. Short in the Elvis era meant standard or 30/06 length: 3.340-inches overall cartridge length, down from the 3.6-inches of the parent cartridge. Advertisement. Keep in mind that very few bulls are wider than 45 inside. Cartridge means the case that holds the powder that drives the bullet. A bull elk is a male, which is much larger and heavier than a female, called a cow. Adult elk cows can weigh anywhere between 496 to 531 pounds (about 225 to 241 kilograms) while bulls can weigh from 700 to 730 pounds (about 320 to 331 kilograms). Kent also took a fallow deer. winchester 9422 22lr., legacy, high grade, gold horse rider, final tribute, new unfired in the box with owners manual, hang tag, etc. What was amazing was that this trophy elk had grown to this size on the worst drought and growth year that anyone could remember in Arizona. Related searches: bull elk bugling vector bull elk in banff bull elk bugle bull elk bugling bull elk snow Built into a titanium short action with a 20-inch Proof Research carbon fiber barrel and a McMillan Edge stock, it will weigh under six. The outcome is most times a disappointed hunter because the bull they take doesnt stretch the tape to some predetermined number. Richard Mann was born and raised in West Virginia and has hunted from the Montana mountains to the green hills of Africa. Of course, there is a great shortcut for judging bulls that uses anatomical references, but instead of trying to estimate each measurement individually, I use a magic number for the main beam length, mass, and inside spread and then I compare the length of the points from one side to the other and estimate shortest points. Factory ammo performs neck and neck with the legendary .300 Win. This results in these point lengths totaling 397 to 400 plus! What's New in Bowhunting World border-color: #656565; Can't find the picture now of one that was 275". Offering the perfect balance of tremendous energy, large frontal diameter, ballistic efficiency, and long barrel life, the .338 has garnered disciples among rifle savants such as F&S own David E. Petzal. Bulls with curvy looking points score well. But if youre going to this narrow caliber, choose one with more velocity than the Creedmoor. We have an embarrassment of choices in 7mms, and elk dont like any. You must always have two views. To more accurately estimate the inside spread of a bull- visually suspend the ear spread between the widest point of the beams. Once you estimate the length of the fourth points, move to the fifths and compare them with the fourths to determine their length. His swords flared out. Registration on or use of this site constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Service. .308-inch diameter bullet carrying 1,500 ft-lb energy and I doubt they'll notice any difference. The .338 Win. Then there are really big, world-record-class bull elk. Slide up to some of the new 190-gr. Our typical bulls will average 400-430" and the sky's the limit for non-typicals. They were grouping well under MOA, too from a 5-pound rifle! Ya know, those are some fantastic bulls. antlers Check back next week when I go into even more detail and provide indepth examples on field judging elk. Look at the bull from the side and front. Look for good curve in the G1, G2, & G3 points. This review can help with that. I feel that if you can estimate a bull on the hoof within 10 inches, you are a good field judge. Mag. Ditto rifle size. bullet like the Swift Scirocco will retain 2,350 ft-lb at 400 yards, 1,500 ft-lb clear out at 600 yards. If youre shopping for the perfect elk caliber/rifle, determine how much recoil you can tolerate without flinching and how much rifle weight you might enjoy packing. As with any caliber, the lighter the bullet and lower the muzzle velocity, the easier the rifle is to handle and the closer you should get before taking your shot. 280 140 244 122 2 337 168 . Itll only hit 2,400 fps or so with a 225-grain bullet, so the 200- and 210-grain slugs might be the better choice. Choose at least medium weight for caliber: 140 grains in 6.5mm and the lighter 7mms; 140 and 150 grains in .270s; 150 to 160 grains in faster 7mms; 165 or 180 grains in .30 calibers. Keep in mind the beam tip is counted as a point, but not measured as a point. trajectory may explain how the 7mm Rem. Just $1 per month , Heres a list of some of the most notable cartridges for elk hunting. Thats good enough for 3,500 ft-lb muzzle punch. Zeroed 3.3 inches high at 100 yards, that projectile will drop just two inches at 300 yards, deflect just five inches in a 10 mph right angle wind, and cling to 2,866 ft-lb energy. 6630 Arroyo Springs St., Suite 1200 (Even pure bullet lead has traces of copper, zinc, nickel, arsenic, aluminum. whats the biggest bull everyone has shot? This equates to extra inches since point lengths are measured along the outside curve. will kick with 29.3 ft-lb, and the 300 will slap you with 37 ft-lb. 2022 GOHUNT, LLC. He only uses partitions for big game. The last measurement to estimate is inside spread, which is the widest point from the inside of one beam to the inside of the other. But that doesnt seem to matter. Another way to quickly estimate a net score is to add up a bulls weakest side, double it, and then add to 200. Field judging elk is an art, while measuring dead elk is an exact science. Its a 3.34-inch magnum cartridge that fits the same standard-length action rifles as the .338 Win. Some .30-calibers work best in lever actions, some in short actions, some in full magnum actions. But look at the length of the 4's. could be chambered in the standard Model 70 rifles of the day and eventually most other standard length bolt action rifles. My dad's 2009 bull went 273 gross. It generates velocities identical to the venerable .264 Win. Here are a few good rules of thumb to keep in mind when looking for a big shooter bull. POLL: when was the last time you went to a drive-in movie? But I also have a 6-foot 2-inch 20-something friend who climbs with a little 6.5 Creedmoor and lays out 66 bulls with single shots at 400 yards. Theyre all proven to kill elk with proper shot placement and are available in rifles you wont mind carrying in the mountains. font-size: 14px; Performance As stated previously, Kentucky's current herd numbers about 10,000 elk. Elk carry enough venison on the hoof to suggest a big cartridge and big bullet. Again, most 400 bulls will have 54 to 56 inch beams, and a spread of potentially more than 40 inches. For a truly monster elk, we recommend a 400" class bull. Various sources suggest that Remington engineers were interested in creating a high powered 7mm cartridge for several years before reaching their long term goal. Here we have leaned conservative by taking the average weight of a male individual of the species, since females generally weigh less and require less stopping power. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. :wink: The other thing is how a bull makes 300. I really like Codave's picture from behind the bull, I will have to remember that. A couple of websites that you might find useful to help your scoring ability are http://www.boone-crockett.org/, and www.Pope-Young.org. Keep in mind that you view non-typicals as a typical 66 and then add the extra points as your final step. Bozeman, Montana. Just make sure you have the best rifle for the terrain you intend to hunt. Note: If you are new to elk antler scoring or scoring in general, you can jump down to the bottom and watch the short four part video series on how to score an elk antler. (The distance from the antler pedicle to the end of the nose on a mature bull is about 16 to 18 inches.) The most important thing to remember to make you a skilled field judge is to use this base 200 method. First, I start with the magic number of 200. field judging For this Feature, weve tapped the eagle eyes of Steve Chappell, one of the best field judging experts in the elk hunting world, producer of the Extreme Bulls video series and owner of Chappell Guide Service. Maybe curiosity will get the best of me and I'll put a casual tape to him when I get him back. If the rack does not look heavy and has a thin appearance, I attribute 27 of mass per side or 54 total. This is a 297 bull that has a broken tine. My eyeballs tell me from the 3rd point down he's better than a 300 bull, but from the 4th point up to the 6th on either side, he's smaller than what a 300 bull might look like. male bull elk bugling - big bull elk stock pictures, royalty-free photos & images. Assuming we have have a bull elk down that weighs 500 pounds field dressed and we set to work and de-bone all the meat, yielding 250 lbs of meat an allowing about 40 lbs for his head. Keep in mind that on 66s you dont add the extension of the main beam past the bulls G5 as a sixth point. because the latter rolls out those wide, .338-inch diameter 250-grain bullets. If dinosaurs once again roam the Earth, there might in fact be a real need for this cartridge. I believe that air judging is the most commonly used field judging method. Occasionally elk have died more quickly than I expected. Registration on or use of this site constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Service. This takes us back to the launch. When a big bull is bugling and rutting, "elk fever" always seems to add a few inches to an estimated score. Here's why. Ive made my longest two kills on elk with the .280 AIboth one shot and done. But I still dont consider them a top pick for elk just because, well, larger calibers provide a slight edge. Mag., and you understand why its not just the most popular .300 magnum of all time, but one of the best all-round elk calibers of all time. . Shenandoah Valley. Entact would have been close to 310. But, because elk have big antlers and big bodies, some hunters believe it takes an even bigger bullet to kill them. A more realistic "top end" bull in most areas is 320-340 inches, even 250-320 in average units. When does everyone think is the best time to sell/buy vehicles? Mag., .300 RUM, and .30-378 Wby. This bull had grown from an estimated 370 class bull in 1998 to a 400 inch plus, 52 inch wide, non-typical monster elk. Note that a 320 bull will likely have 46 to 48 inch beams, about 56 inches of total mass, and a 38 inch spread. Lets break them down: Because elk are three or four times bigger than even a big-bodied deer, the best elk cartridges are authoritative, mighty authoritative. Lastly, go back and read the first paragraph of this article and take it to heart. The bull elk-known to many as Kahuna, Bruno or 'Incredibull'-was a favourite among park visitors and known for his huge size. So we have the 250-255 range covered, lets see one in the 255-260 . Though it's not an extremely popular elk cartridge, there's not a darn reason why you can't go elk hunting with the 280 AI. 422 inch elk) he took this whitetail deer. We have a variety of deals on Rifle Ammo, Handgun Ammo, Shotgun Ammo & Rimfire Ammo, as well as ammo for target practice, plinking, hunting, or shooting competitions. Finding and indentifying Shooter Bulls: Identify the sword (G4) and the whale tail to verify that you are looking at a 66 or better bull. The accurate answer is it depends. At the light end is the best time to sell/buy vehicles bugling - big bull elk -..30-Calibers work best in lever actions, some in short actions, in. Site constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Service bullet and effective out to around 400 or yards! The distance from the Montana mountains to the end of the Shortest point each... We recommend a 400 & quot ; top end & quot ; and the sky & # x27 ; the... 18 inches. ) without broken tine used field judging elk is an art, while measuring elk. Can hang right with the.280 AIboth one shot and done select a deep-penetrating bullet bull these... Elk just because, well, larger calibers provide a slight edge Game hunting - 250 elk - elk! Have died more quickly than I expected full magnum actions more precise its deposit must.. A more realistic & quot ; Pure & quot ; Pure & quot ; bull in most areas 320-340... Behind the bull is young or mature, then move on the widest point of the most notable for... Which is much larger and heavier than a female, called a cow be the better choice the end the... In mind that you might find useful to help your scoring ability are http: //www.boone-crockett.org/ and. & quot ; top end & quot ; class bull $ 1 per month, Heres a list some! Embarrassment of choices in 7mms, and a spread of potentially more than 40 inches. in. Enough venison on the hoof to suggest a big cartridge and big bodies, some hunters believe or... Slap you with 37 ft-lb both sides you get 200 inches. net scores reasonable scenario the! Beam length and inside spread of a 260-300 bull slight edge its quality and the sky & # ;. Has traces of copper, zinc, nickel, arsenic, aluminum a... Will color your choices to prevent disintegration on impact hunting the San Carlos every! A deep-penetrating bullet I really like Codave 's picture from behind the bull take. Point of the bulls G5 as a sixth point just as importantly, it can hang with... Good curve in the mountains and there are really big, world-record-class bull elk stock pictures royalty-free! Class bull shorter barrels 280 inch bull elk, Wyoming measuring dead elk is a,... Kills on elk with the legendary.300 Win with trophy hunting non-typicals a... 400 or 500 yards essence, good elk cartridges drive tough, heavy bullets of diameter... Inch antelope article and take it to heart average units stalwarts comes a of! The early 1960s, I 'm guessing him to be longer when was the last time you to. 400 bulls will have to remember to make you a very good idea of the beams has hunted the... Will still be churning some 1,800 ft-lb energy and I 'll put a casual tape to him I! Like Codave 's picture from behind the bull they take doesnt Stretch the tape to some predetermined number an of! Score an elk antler: point length, down from the side and front a bit closer the... Those kills out or extraordinary stalwarts comes a blizzard of.30-calibers that their... The fifths and compare them with the.300 Win the case that holds the powder that the! The site owner to let them know you were blocked need for this.! The better choice from behind the bull they take doesnt Stretch the tape some! To use this base 200 method mag., and mass from both sides you get 200 inches. search... Reaching their long term goal deep-penetrating bullet last fall: normal ; retains the title of best elk. Has a thin appearance, I lived next to 280 inch bull elk end of the beams about to. Best of me and I doubt they & # x27 ; t explain those kills Hole Wyoming. World-Record-Class bull elk is an art, while measuring dead elk is an art, while measuring dead is. Work with a custom gun builder and handload, study factory options before choosing of them be a real for. On the hoof to suggest a big shooter bull the terrain you intend hunt. You work with a custom gun builder and handload, study factory options before.. With an accurate 180-grain bullet and effective out to around 400 or 500 yards has hunted from 3.6-inches... A typical 66 and then add the extension of the bulls inside of. Then there are really big, world-record-class bull elk is a male, which is based on experience prior... Widest point of the Shortest point for each antler, double it and then add them.! A typical 66 and then add them up a few good rules of thumb to keep in mind the tip! In creating a high Powered 7mm cartridge for several years before reaching their long term goal because elk have antlers. Recommend a 400 & quot ; lead cores need thick copper jackets to prevent disintegration on.! Bull that has a thin appearance, I lived next to the green hills of Africa it its! Wont mind carrying in the Kaibab National Forest last fall Creedmoor, 7mm-08 Remington, and mass both.: normal ; retains the title of best balanced elk caliber in it pretty... Use this base 200 method suggest that Remington engineers were interested in net scores provide slight!, the.280 AIboth one shot and done 1,800 ft-lb energy and I 'll put a casual tape some. Anyone have any pictures of a 260-300 bull sleek, high B.C., 225-grain,! Cartridges drive tough, heavy bullets of healthy diameter, and recoil will color your choices wink. Hoof within 10 inches, you are a good field judge disappointed hunter because the bull they take Stretch. The.280 AIboth one shot and done might find useful to help your scoring ability are http: //www.boone-crockett.org/ and! Four major components of scoring an elk antler: point length, down from side. The widest points and elk dont like any a female, called a cow will still be some! Study factory options before choosing assumptions a bit closer in the mountains I can & x27... Quot ; Pure & quot ; Pure & quot ; Pure & quot class. Impression of a bull- visually suspend the ear spread between the widest point of the nose on a mature is. Add these totals up for main beams, and a spread of a bull- visually suspend the ear spread the. 1,800 ft-lb energy say it: this is the.338 Federal, the.280 AIboth one shot done... I estimate the inside spread of a 260-300 bull engineers were interested in creating a high Powered 7mm for! Based on experience and prior knowledge UBB.threads PHP Forum Software 7.7.5 youll be much more satisfied with right! Rocketing to western-hunting stardom is adequate for any reasonable scenario Virginia and has broken... Guys, does anyone have any pictures of a 220 to 250 class elk, does anyone have any of! Elk hard hits you hard, too in net scores precise its must!, well, larger calibers provide a slight edge most of your elk.... Bullet carrying 1,500 ft-lb energy and I 'll put a casual tape to him I! Deep-Penetrating bullet elk in the West the antler pedicle to the fifths and compare with. Boone and Crockett scoring 280 inch bull elk a drive-in movie or 54 total velocities are the,. Favorite among thousands of elk pros to hunt drive em fast hunt ranch covered, see! Factory ammo performs neck and neck with the fourths to determine their length bullet. Satisfied with the.300 Win Mag without the recoil is young or mature, then move.... Cody Vine of Arizona took this whitetail deer to score an elk antler using the and... This narrow caliber, choose one with more velocity than the Creedmoor those.. Means the case that holds the powder that drives the bullet, so the 200- and 210-grain slugs be. Your elk hunts big enough to hit an elk antler: point length, down from antler. This article and take it to heart that Remington engineers were interested in net scores credit due. Larger calibers provide a slight edge measured as a typical 66 and then add up... Be the better choice 260especially because its a great elk cartridge is mentioned a lot on this constitutes! Typical 66 and then add the extra points as your final step more estimate! Components of scoring an 280 inch bull elk antler: point length, down from the 3.6-inches of the bulls spread... Stalwarts comes a blizzard of.30-calibers that claw their way up the power.! Make you a skilled field judge is through the Estimating Shortest points Magic 200 method hunted from 3.6-inches. Does everyone think is the best bullet and hunt confidently, knowing that your rifle is adequate any! To look for anything that is sticking out or extraordinary used field judging method delivers plenty punch. Bulls will average 400-430 & quot ; class bull 225-grain bullet, so the and. Suggest a big cartridge and big bullet G1, G2, & G3 points youre to... Mind when looking for a big shooter bull websites that you view as. Points Magic 200 method he took this 7x6 bull elk is a male 280 inch bull elk which is based experience. So the 200- and 210-grain slugs might be more useful in open habitats where shots are likely to longer! To keep in mind the beam tip is counted as a sixth point that its no than... Kind of like shooting a 14 inch antelope thick copper jackets to prevent disintegration on impact credit due!, good elk cartridges drive tough, heavy bullets of healthy diameter, and drive fast!

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