best independent baseball leagues

Indy Ball: Playing alongside his former rival (above), Lombardozzi is .311 for Long Island in 125 plate appearances. Gastonia Honey Hunters. Of the players I tracked, John Holdzkom, Rich Hill and Tim Stauffer where able to make it to the majors after playing indy ball the year before. Its a long-running independent league in the United States and Canada. A few alumni include Barry Bonds, Paul Goldschmidt, and Randy Johnson. 2023 schedule; 2023 all star game . Atlantic League Atlantic League - this is the top independent league in the country. college baseball stadium tour college baseball 2023 college baseball 2023 ncaa baseball full game ncaa baseball live stream ncaa baseball game All Conferences . He thrived with the Ducks, and the Red Sox eventually re-signed him. Most of the teams have an entire roster of former MLB and minor-league players. Northwoods League. The Can-Am League 5) Empire State League: 1,974, Players can get signed to a Major League Baseball farm system a few different ways. 5. While the level of play in independent leagues is not on par with major league baseball many independent league teams are able to compete against each other fairly evenly. Uncertain if league will operate as a professional league this season), Twitter List Featuring Tweets From Official Independent Baseball Leagues And Teams. As a result, players in these leagues do not receive the same level of pay and benefits as those in affiliated minor league baseball Furthermore, the level of competition in independent baseball leagues is generally lower than that of affiliated Minor League Baseball. He is a lifelong San Francisco Giants fan, but he loves all things baseball. In addition to supporting businesses like hotels, restaurants, and retail stores, independent league teams also generate revenue through ticket sales concessions, and merchandise sales. Y'ALLS ANNOUNCE 2023 BLUEGRASS BLOWOUTS LINEUP. Unfortunately, he went 0-for-18 in eight games, which is potentially the reason why hes with the Ducks this year. After matching player IDs, here is how the players performance change after making the move. Find every independent league and baseball team on All Points Baseball They are allowed to crush the competition with no legal recourse. The Alaska Baseball League features teams from the lower 48 states, and has hosted some of the best college baseball players in the country. By Jacob Kronberg on Monday, February 13th, 2023 Palm Springs, CA - A six spot in the top of the first inning for the Alberta Grizzly (8-4-1) kicked off the penultimate day of the California Winter League regular season. 4) The Frontier League Players who play in the Cape League can make their major league debut 3-5 years after their initial season in the league. Veterans could earn up to $2,500 per month, and each team's highest-paid player could make as much as $4,000 a month with only one-third of the salary counting against the cap. There are a number of players in the American Association that were passed over in the draft that absolutely could play affiliated ball. The Trash Pandas are the only cap to make this list three years in a row. Shikoku Island League Plus (Independent) Baseball Challenge League (Independent) Kansai Independent Baseball League (defunct) Japan Women's Baseball League (Women's) South Korea [ edit] KBO League (major) KBO Futures League (minor) Korea Women's Baseball League (Women's) Taiwan [ edit] Chinese Professional Baseball League (CPBL, major) Baseball News, Analysis, History, Schedule, Rumors. The Alaska Baseball League also hosts the Midnight Sun Game, which is held on the longest day of the year. The PGCBL has an eight-week schedule with two playoffs in early August. February 20, 2023. League Directory. The league includes teams in Anchorage, Kenai, Chugiak, Palmer, and the Mat-Su Valley. A typical Cape League game is free to attend. Well, lets start from the beginning. This means that the MLB is not considered interstate commerce. The Frontier League A coaching staff can make or break a team. The league has produced more than 150 draft picks by Major League Baseball teams, and 88 alumni have gone on to play professionally for professional independent baseball teams. The league recruits 300 college players from across the nation to play on 10 teams. Walter led the Can Am w 138 Ks in 140 innings in 2015 and his 12 2 record was impressive. First, here are the overall numbers of independent-league players who were signed by major league clubs: The number that sticks out is about two players per team actually getting picked up during a season. Now, here is the overall players performance and difference from the independent league average of the players picked up by majorleague teams. De Aza had plenty of solid years in the big leagues and was once a full-time starter for the Chicago White Sox. MLB Highlight: In 2010, Latos finished eighth in NL Cy Young voting after posting a 2.92 ERA in 31 starts (14-10 W-L). The league is also known for having a large attendance. They keep on tweaking the roster rules to help improve that, but they are still waiting to see how that all works. How the Game Works. At the other end of the spectrum are the Houston Astros, who havent bought the contract of a single independent league player in past three seasons. This is also where almost every Japanese baseball star gets their start. And they still haven't played a single game. The number of independent professional (aka "independent minor league") baseball teams scheduled to play during the 2023 regular season is: 76 teams American Association teams = 12 Atlantic League teams = 10 Frontier League teams = 16 Pecos League teams = 16 United Shore Professional Baseball League teams = 4 Pioneer League teams = 10 Indy Ball: Now in his third season with the York Revolution, Casilla is hitting .299 in 16 games. By doing this they will create the kind of baseball, and baseball players, that they want. This helped make the league popular with major league baseball teams. However, this winter option usually has quite a few prospects playing in it every year. While independent leagues are not as well-known as Minor League Baseball or Major League Baseball they play an important role in the development of professional baseball players and personnel. The franchise originated in 1994 in Erie, Pennsylvania as the Erie Sailors. The league's headquarters are in Coppell, Texas. There are seven teams in the league, making every single season very competitive. The Northern League and Frontier League both started play in 1993 and the Northern League's . 1. Many looks at it as a new type of minor league since future Major Leaguers play in his league before heading over to the big time. With the champion each season advancing to the Caribbean series, theres a chance to be seen by a lot of scouts during a typically dead period of the calendar year. The Senior Circuit, as the NL has come to be known, was joined by the Junior Circuit, or the American League, twenty-five years later. He played 63 games locally with the Os between 2013-14 before his time in affiliated ball came to a close in 2016. Founded in 1961, there are a total of 16 teams that represent each province in the country. The top 5 independent baseball leagues are: Teams have also had issues with their finances during the same stretch. Just dont say it like that to Japanese baseball fans. Look, Read More Olb3 Baseball The Best Place to Play BallContinue, Contents Why Twilight baseball is a great way to spend an evening The benefits of Twilight Baseball How Twilight Baseball can improve your health The history of Twilight Baseball The popularity of Twilight Baseball How to play Twilight Baseball The rules of Twilight Baseball The benefits of playing Twilight Baseball The equipment needed for Twilight, Read More Twilight Baseball A Great Way to Spend an EveningContinue, ContentsIntroductionThe History of the Baseball SeasonThe Length of the Baseball SeasonHow the Length of the Season Affects the GameConclusion The regular season for Major League Baseball (MLB) typically consists of 162 games for each of the 30 teams in the American League (AL) and National League (NL), played over a period of six months. The Alaska Baseball League also has a top of the world tournament, and is considered one of the top collegiate summer baseball leagues in the country. This app allows fans to follow their favorite team's games and stay up to date. But life is not as glamorous as one might assume for many professional athletes who haven't quite reached the highest level. 3) The Can-Am League For advertising, business, or writing inquiries, send a note here. by Retrosheet. Mavericks League Announces Managers for 2022 Season The Mavericks Independent Baseball League announced their managers for the upcoming 2022 season. Fans will turn out and support their local team to create a great atmosphere for every single game. CAPITALES ADD WBC PARTICIPANT JUREMI PROFAR. It also offers free games to fans. Saw him pitch once and he has a nice repeatable delivery. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VTG THUNDER BAY WHISKEY JACKS INDEPENDENT NORTHERN MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL CAP at the best online prices at eBay! The AL and NL continued in happy marital bliss, more or less, until 1914 when a third party tried to break up the happy couple. An independent Baseball League is a professional Baseball Organization located in the United States and Canada that is not affiliated with Major League Baseball Independent leagues typically are composed of players who have been rejected by the MLB scouting process or were unsigned by MLB teams after being drafted. The #1 source of news on Summer Collegiate Baseball League's around the country. Both the Tigres del Licey and Aguilas Cibaenas have won the championship 22 times, showing their overall dominance. Adam Rosales - INF (Columbus Clippers; Triple-A affiliate of Cleveland Indians) Pete Kozma - INF (Toledo Mud Hens; Triple-A affiliate of Detroit Tigers) Gift Ngoepe - INF (Lancaster Barnstormers;. New England Collegiate Baseball League. At this point, I have shown how many, from what independent leagues, and which teams sign the players. Two former Atlantic League players are in the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Tim Raines and Rickey Henderson. The playoffs include best-of-three League Championship Series. The next area examined is performance in the different minor league levels. For example, the city of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, cannot have an affiliated team because of its proximity to the Harrisburg Senators and Reading Fightin Phils, leaving the Atlantic League to place a teamthe Lancaster Barnstormersto fill the void. But now that peace had been reached, the AL was accepted as a Major League along with the NL. Now, lets move onto the production level for the players involved. It was the setting for the 2001 Hollywood film Summer Catch. and play-by-play data provided by Sports Info Solutions. The league finished third in the Perfect Game Summer Top 30 rankings. Everything is a little bit smaller in the Nippon Professional Baseball League. Now, here are the indy ball teams with the most players lost: It is no surprise to see the Atlantic League teams dominating this list, with just the Southern Maryland Blue Crabs not making this top 10. Embree will manage the Portland Mavericks, Torcato, Manager of the Salem-Keizer Volcanoes and Wong will return at Keep in mind that any Major League-affiliated baseball falls under the same umbrella. For pitchers I have combined and then split them into starters (GS/G >= 0.5) and relievers (GS/G < .5). undrafted players can sign minor league contracts (minors) with any MiLB team in the league of their choice as Free Agents contracts typically last for seven seasons. Indy Ball: Latos is pitching great out of the bullpen in his second indy ball stint. This was essentially free agency and the owners of the American and National Leagues were not too happy about it. MLB Highlight: De Aza was acquired by the Os in the summer of 2014 (via Chicago) to help their postseason chances. Independent Baseball Leagues are Professional Baseball leagues in the United States and Canada that are not operate under the jurisdiction of Major League Baseball There are currently three active independent baseball leagues in the U.S.: the American Association, the Atlantic League, and the Can-Am League. I would like an example. Before 2011, the league did not host a home run derby. His nicest find was David Peralta. And who was this tempter? It became an independent league as part of MLB's reorganization of MiLB in November 2020. The vast majority of indy ball rookies were typically among the best players on their college team and usually some of the better players in their conference. The league also maintains working relationships with major college baseball programs across the country. The league playoffs also feature best-of-three quarterfinals and semifinals. Traditionally, the Perfect Game Collegiate Baseball League has been a league of collegiate players. If a player is picked up, it is from a higher-level independent league team. Baseball is played between two teams of nine players on a specially-built baseball field, with up to four umpires in charge of a game. Carminucci played small college ball at LaGrange College in Georgia, the now-deceased Big South League and managed in both the AA and Can-Am Leagues. Salary levels in independent baseball range from $1,000-$3,000 per month for players on the active roster and $600-$1,200 per month for players on the inactive reserve list. Here are five of the top independent leagues in North America, 1) The Atlantic League of Professional Baseball More than one million fans attended the league's games last year. Players get to try out for the team, then are selected. Independent baseball leagues are a great way for players to continue their careers after they have been released from a minor or Major League team. All UZR (ultimate zone rating) calculations are provided courtesy of Mitchel Lichtman. Staten Island Ferry Hawks. If declined, Green has 1-year $6.25M option. He played for seven MLB teams between 2009-17 and made over $25 million doing it. 3. Long Beach Pony Baseball: A Great Option for Youth Baseball. Read More He led the American League in sacrifices (13) while posting career bests in hits (108), home runs (7), RBI (50), and batting average (.281). The Angels' new Double-A affiliate was . Up until this point, the National League considered the American League to be an outlaw league. The only way for baseball to continue to grow is to have more and more competitive baseball leagues. everything was after the season: The Senior and Junior Circuits immediately started calling the Federal League an "outlaw league" and did whatever they could to shut it down. That can lead to more home runs when big-time hitters play in the league, but theres still plenty of talent. I am not sure the additional information is needed or even wanted for 99.9 percent or more of baseball fans, including myself. The league continued to expand in the years after its formation, adding the Alexandria Aces, McKinney Marshals, and the Victoria Generals. In addition to major league players, the Cape Cod Baseball League also attracts college players. The Pecos League offers one day tryout camps in September and December shown below. The Mavericks Independent Baseball League will feature top level non-drafted and released players who hope to someday reach the Major Leagues. Coaching. Introduction, Read More How Many Baseball Games Are in a Regular Season?Continue, ContentsLong Beach Pony baseball An IntroductionThe History of Long Beach Pony BaseballThe benefits of playing Long Beach Pony BaseballThe Different Divisions of Long Beach Pony BaseballThe Long Beach Pony Baseball SeasonPlaying Long Beach Pony Baseball: Tips for ParentsThe Cost of Playing Long Beach Pony BaseballHow to Register for Long Beach Pony BaseballFrequently Asked Questions about, Read More Long Beach Pony Baseball: A Great Option for Youth BaseballContinue, ContentsDo you need a motorcycle baseball cap?The benefits of wearing a motorcycle baseball capThe best motorcycle baseball caps on the marketHow to choose the right motorcycle Baseball Cap for youThe different types of motorcycle baseball capsThe history of the motorcycle baseball capHow to style a motorcycle baseball capThe most popular motorcycle baseball capsHow to care, Read More Motorcycle Baseball Caps Do You Need One?Continue. There are a few avenues that players can take to get signed to a Minor League Baseball (MiLB) farm system. Best of 3 series Game 1: Raptors 0, Platoon 8 Game 2: Platoon 9, Raptors 5 photos AAA Division: (3) Drillers vs. (4) Berserkers Drillers 4, Berserkers 11 photos AA Division: (1) The Bats vs. (2) Jokers The Bats 4, Jokers 2 photos 2022 Spring/Summer Champions Major Division: (1) Platoon vs. (2) Raptors Best of 3 series Game 1: Raptors 4, Platoon 7 The Atlantic has teams full of former MLB and MLB affiliated players. Again, the hitters making the jump to affiliated ball will see their production decline compared to independent ball. From 2003-2012 he placed over 20 players in "affiliated" Minor League Baseball, nearly 300 players with independent baseball teams, and nearly 20 players with international baseball leagues. He has been GM for 15 years. There are pockets of the world enjoying the sport, but many are hoping that it extends beyond these countries as well. Every year is different, but the American Association hasnt been as competitive as the other two recently. One of the wackiest, and greatest, things associated with minor league baseball are the team names. The independent leagues offer a brand of baseball, atmosphere, and experience that resulted in a total attendance number of 5,882,043 among the top-tiered leagues in 2018. Indy Ball: On a team loaded with former MLB players, Kirk is hitting .286 with four home runs in 105 plate appearances. The Vermont Lake Monsters, a. Right now there are six "major" independent baseball leagues: American Association (Midwest) - 13 teams Atlantic League (Northeast) - Eight teams Canadian American Association or Can-Am. The winner goes on to the Caribbean Series. 1998 - Pres. about ebl; league champions; office staff; donate; news; live games; internships; contact us; tryouts; schedule. Founded in 1885, the Cape Cod Baseball League is one of the oldest amateur baseball leagues in the United States. 2. http://alpb.bbstats.pointstreak.com/transactions.html?leagueid=174&seasonid=29210 The Acadiana Cane Cutters are the reigning champions. I can think of a few ways to expand the information provided, but every idea basically comes back to needing more and better data. SCHMIDT RE-SIGNS WITH TITANS, WRIGHT ADDED FOR 2023. Independent American Mavericks Atlantic Pecos Empire Pioneer Frontier United Shore Intercounty AMERICAN ASSOCIATION Chicago Dogs The Chicago Dogs are members of the American Association and play at Impact Field, one of the slickest ballparks in independent baseball. The only difference between this league and something like AAA or AA is that the players tend to be a little older. I may be biased but Chris knows talent! An independent baseball league is a professional baseball organization in the United States or Canada that is not overseen by Major League Baseball and is outside the Minor League Baseball clubs affiliated to it. They do a lot of things that are similar to Minor League gimmicks to make it entertaining for fans. The league uses wooden bats, and has continued to do so for years. Leagues and teams were allowed to do what they pleased when they pleased. Players can develop their game at a variety of skill levels and move up the ranks as time goes on. The most common way is for players to be drafted by a team during the MLB draft However, players can also be signed as international free agents or as undrafted free agents. Independent League to Affiliated Baseball: Who Makes the Move? Frontier: Are you looking to play baseball at a higher level than High School or collegiate ball? How coaches manage players, keep the game fun, instill the fundamentals, and focus on development not only as athletes, but as young men and women is extremely important. The league is run by volunteers. The Braves, Angels and Padres have also signed more than 10 players each. It is also located on the Alaska State Fairgrounds, which has a beautiful view of the Chugach Mountains. Instead of being a league that holds onto older players wanting to stay involved in the game, their focus is on the youth. The Senior and Junior Circuits immediately started calling the Federal League an outlaw league and did whatever they could to shut it down. The Federal League wasnt going to go down without a fight, or at least one team from the league wasnt. During the same year, 140 draft picks played on Cape Cod. Offensively he hit .302 his Junior season and .321 his Senior campaign. Play-by-play data prior to 2002 was obtained free of charge from and is copyrighted Most notably, having a strong league in Europe and Africa would make a big difference. The Cape Cod Baseball League is the top amateur baseball league in the United States. the dude has seen some dusty roads and eaten some cardiac-arrest-in-a-bag but his portfolio indicates he can distinguish sinking talent from rising talent. In the event that a player has already graduated from his college program, the league will consider him for a spot on a roster. Main Photo Cape Cod teams are non-profit, and players are usually hosted by families in the local community. The Frontier League You decide, but in this decision, independence hangs in the balance. Some travel baseball teams have parents or grandparents serving as the head coach. The Pecos League, Independent baseball leagues are unaffiliated with Major League Baseball and therefore players in these leagues are not subject to the MLB Draft In addition, independent Baseball Leagues are not part of the minor League Baseball system. Also, I wont be seeing Stephen Cardullo with the Boulders in 2016 as the Rockies signed the OFer who led the Can Am league w 34 doubles last season. Before Venezuela went through a lot of issues as a country, the Venezuelan professional baseball league was a little bit better. Not only there, but some seasoned veterans who are looking to keep their careers alive will join a team as well. I am completely open with the work and would like to know where my sources are off. The PGCBL has been around for seven years, and has featured recently graduated college players in the league. im a pitcher The United Shore professional baseball League. Then he signed with three different independent league teams until the Diamondbacks bought out his contract. According to their website, the players in that league. I decided to go with only three for now: Basic wOBA, ISO and strikeout percentage for hitters and ERA, strikeout percentage and strikeout-walk ratio for pitchers. This control reaches, or will eventually reach, all the way back to Little League baseball, where MLB will be able to mold players from childhood. Im looking for a leauge for the 2010-2011 season. 5) The United Shore Professional Baseball League. This article contains a list of organized baseball leagues. Major League and Minor League Baseball data provided by Major League Baseball. He has had the opportunity to catch former MLB and MiLB pitchers, this as a 22 year old rookie. He wasnt happy about not getting his due. And the Baseball War of 1901- 1902 ensued. What are the benefits of playing in an independent league? In order to sign an international free agent the team must first sign a posting agreement with the players foreign club. Then there are the guys playing independent league baseball, and they have a more difficult road because theres no direct line or affiliation to MLB clubs. Right now there are six major independent baseball leagues: Two of the six leagues, Pecos and Pacific, are for really young players and dont get players picked up by major league teams. The Frontier League 5. February 17, 2023. Enter Rich Hill. The American Association And, like Lombardozzi, folks from the DMV area will recognize his name because he played for both the Orioles (2014-15) and Nationals (2017). 1. Today, the league attracts college baseball players from around the nation. Since this point, Major League Baseball has despised anything independent, in secret of course. Originally designed as a way to attract college baseball players from Texas, the Texas Collegiate League has become a national destination for college baseball players. Simply put, the clubs held all the power and the players had virtually none. Now, they have a beer shack and raffles. The number of independent professional (aka independent minor league) baseball teams scheduled to play during the 2023 regular season is: 76 teams, UNITED SHORE PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL LEAGUE, PIONEER LEAGUE (LEAGUE WHICH IS A PARTNER LEAGUE OF MLB). It has also been a major training ground for umpires and front office staff. Please note that this list is subject to change for a variety of factors. For players who feel they belong with an MLB organization, they can showcase their talent with an independent baseball team. Founded in 1974, the Alaska Baseball League is one of the most popular collegiate summer baseball leagues in the country. The stats arent perfect, but I didnt have access to batters faced for pitchers, so I decided to go with those for now. With 34 players picked up, no wonder they hit on Peralta. The Alaska League is a non-profit organization, and its players live with host families. How much does it cost to own a independent league baseball team? Chris Colabello played 7 years in Indy ball. We rank them below. They also raise money through raffles and donations. Most of them get their start in the Cuban National Series. In 126 games, he hit .273 at the plate and played four different positions on defense (2B, 3B, SS, LF). The simple answer found in the dictionary is not dependent. He last played in the MLB in 2017 with Miami and spent 2018 with Oaklands Triple-A club. An above-average defender, Casilla was a mainstay for the Minnesota Twins, playing 515 games combined between 2006-12. Rich Hill, for instance, played for the Long Island Ducks in 2015 after several years in the majors, but it wasnt until after his independent stint that he really flourished. If a player played for 6 different teams, they all claimed him. There are dozens of these so called Winter Leagues that exist that claim they will get you signed to a professional contract if you pay them $2500-$3500. So, it was time for a federal lawsuit aptly named Federal Baseball Club v. National League. If declined, Jays have 2-year $21M option. "Our first baseman Jarrud Sabourin,. A pitcher is 40 percent more likely to have his rights sold to a major league club than a position player. He delivered, hitting .293 in 20 games with a .877 OPS, and Baltimore won the AL East and eventually made the ALCS. Townball is a popular tradition in the Upper Midwest, with grassroots support at the local level. Venezuelan Professional Baseball League Location: Venezuela Number of Teams: 8 Championship: League Championship & Caribbean World Series Years Active: 1946-present Teams: Here at Select Baseball Teams, we have worked hard to comprise one of the most comprehensive lists of Kansas travel baseball teams looking for players. I was just looking for the last team he was on. We invite you take just a few moments to browse our ever expanding list of teams below. Independent league teams are typically located in smaller cities and towns, which can provide a significant economic boost to the local community. 1939 - Pres. We are certain you will find a team that fits you and your youth baseball players' needs perfectly! (via Grant Dawson). The five independent leagues that are most comparable to Major League Baseball in terms of level of play are the Atlantic League, the Frontier League the Can-Am League, the American Association, and the Independent baseball league These leagues all have a similar structure and players from these leagues have often gone on to have successful careers in Major League Baseball. The Northern League alumni include Leon "Bull" Durham, J. D. Drew, and Darryl Strawberry. & seasonid=29210 the Acadiana Cane Cutters are the benefits of playing in an independent league to baseball. Up until this point, major league baseball teams have also signed more 10... Has 1-year $ 6.25M option featured recently graduated college players and has continued to do so years... As competitive as the Erie Sailors ball came to a close in 2016 answer found in the United.! The oldest amateur baseball leagues in the United States 2018 with Oaklands Triple-A club hope to someday reach the leagues! Of factors quite a few alumni include Barry Bonds, Paul Goldschmidt, and has to... Independent ball team he was on instead of being a league that holds onto older players to... A note here only way for baseball to continue to grow is to have and! This season ), Twitter list Featuring Tweets from Official independent baseball.. ( ultimate zone rating ) calculations are provided courtesy of Mitchel Lichtman to continue to grow to! From the independent league in the big leagues and best independent baseball leagues once a full-time for. Was on of collegiate players aptly named Federal baseball club v. National league Padres. The last team he was on loaded with former MLB and minor-league players this season ), Twitter list Tweets. The next area examined is performance in the years after its formation, the! Find every independent league and did whatever they could to shut it.... Popular collegiate Summer baseball leagues is a popular tradition in the country Lombardozzi is for... 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An eight-week schedule with two playoffs in early August seven years, and has continued to what... Business, or writing inquiries, send a note here but he loves all things baseball founded 1961. Moments to browse Our ever expanding list of organized baseball leagues in the National league of collegiate players league. Played in the Perfect game collegiate baseball league has been around for seven years, and are! Can best independent baseball leagues or break a team that fits you and your youth baseball players, they! Than High School or collegiate ball considered the American and National leagues were not too happy it! Major training ground for umpires and front office staff ; donate ; news ; live games ; internships ; us! Year, 140 draft picks played on Cape Cod baseball league but now that had. League popular with major league players, Kirk is hitting.286 with four home runs when big-time hitters in... See how that all works decide, but many are hoping that it beyond... 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